alas... i do not have a microsoft support account.

derleek wrote:What is a no-brainer? are you saying that jQuery will be a better tool based on new-user support?

Yeah. Corporate users know we can write off support and software costs. If you have an existing microsoft support account why would you use any other library? I've been saying this from the start, if anyone wanted to start a company so that I can start paying for mootools support (perhaps get a little less attitude) I would subscribe the the tune of tens of thousands a year. Since m$ already offers that, and now supports jquery on my initial investment, its a no-brainer for jquery as a library. I'm not doing this for accolades, I'm doing this for money. To me I'm less concerned with semantics/purity/or elegance (although its nice) and more concerned with time taken, problems solved, money made. Jquery + m$ will reduce even more of my development time, which leaves me with more time for creativity.

Plus, if you like an IDE that helps you with your javascript, and already develop in .net, you get another freebee. Not only is vstudio express free, but so is the jquery update for it. I've already switched to vstudio to debug my javascript, this is the cherry on top.

Jquery has gotten a lot of traction like many have pointed out. In large part this is due to the community and the accessibility of the framework. Unlike Mootools, Jquery actually targets entry level developers. This was a powerful move in getting traction and recognition by large companies like Google and Microsoft. The syntax and logic behind jquery is one where if you can write css, you should be able to write jquery. I think jquery is a powerful framework and can do anything you need. In terms of the community support, they are no different then Mootools. They rely on google group etc. The best part about jquery's site is the lack of stickiness. They ease the burden off the core team by having directories of plugins and tutorials where users can find more information. I don't think its necessary for mootools to have a forum but I think we do need a centralized place to traffic all the valuable resources related to mootools.

I personally love mootools and would be extremely sad if I had to use anything else. One of my biggest gripes with jquery is how it seems to over simplify what is going on. I think having the entry level so low creates more crap. However, if you look at this argument it falls because PHP kinda followed the same doctrine. Like mentioned before, Mootools kills anything else in terms of effects. The speed, flexibility is second to none. The true OO paradigm that mootools has adopted instantly makes the point of entry much higher, but with greater payoffs. Class.Mutators now thats just sick! Mootools doesn't really begin to shine unless your dealing with an adequate amount of complexity. The modularity is a lifesaver at times. If I find a plugin I like but it doesn't do exactly what I want, I don't need to change the code, I just extend the class. This is a place where I see jquery running into problems down the road.

I have a lot more to say on the subject but I got to run.

tombmedia wrote:todays noobs are tomorrows programmers.

very good point and the fundamental flaw in the mootool's team attitude to new users.

What is a no-brainer? are you saying that jQuery will be a better tool based on new-user support?

I was about to post that it's a no-brainer now. Not only do they have teh might of m$, but microsoft is offering support on all jquery trouble tickets. That is HUGE. To have enterprise level support is one thing, but to offer it to thousands of m$ partners with existing support plans is crazy. I'm pretty sure we'll be looking back at this and see that this was the nail in the js library coffin along with jack slocum killing extjs through mismanaging his licenses. A lot of investments seem flaky right now except jquery. You might not like Billyg, but he has a lot of money. He's probably the only one that realizes todays noobs are tomorrows programmers.

Intellisense in visual studio that gives documentation for jquery plugins. Holy moly. In the free visual web developer too. Probably in the expressions web program as well. Thats a lot of jquery coverage. Especially since expression web 2 does php intellisense as well.

I do cringe at the thought of all the crappy jquery code we'll see though. Good tools don't make a good programmer.

icebits wrote:Microsoft will be shipping jQuery with Visual Studio going forward.

ugh... one more reason to NOT use jQuery

if microsoft is using it it's bound to implode in itself!

Microsoft will be shipping jQuery with Visual Studio going forward.

The biggest reason to use mootools compared to the other libraries is by far the fluidity with the animations. Originally moo.fx was an effects library for scriptaculous/prototype as the original methodology was a 'create and discard' with your fx. In turn you found that your animations were choppy, could end halfway, and a bunch of other things that just didn't seem to compete with the same fluid motions in flash 100% of the time. Mootools does that. I have just recently been using jquery and that is the thing I notice most with the two libraries. With jquery the animations are still a little choppy and although I haven't dug under the hood as I have with mootools, the main issue (at least at the beginning) is the lack of solid animation logic.

The code behind mootools (I find at least) was written by people who not only understand javascript and code very well, but understand good visual design and have kept that in mind while building the library.

As for the community, that is the worst part about mootools. I'm a canadian so maybe I'm just a little too sensitive, but I'm having problems finding any non-commercial opensource initiatives that don't use elitism to weed out the 'noobs and script kids' (to quote mootools staff). Everyone seems to be on a mean streak, so don't take it to heart, just keep trying.

I've seen *lot* of cool code/plugins/effects, written for jquery - and that is when knowing jquery comes in handy, when you want to convert it. Thankfully, it's not too different that you can't figure it out, and the documentation is pretty easy to dig through.

first: i'm very glad this forum seems to be growing!! yay!

second: There really is just something about Jquery that I don't like. I haven't really had much of a chance to dive into it like I have with mootools, but i have decided that I am going to stick with mootools (initially, i'll probably have to learn some Jquery stuff too).

third: Yes, the lack of mootools community is VERY frustrating. It seems like this 'unofficial' forum might help out the community greatly.